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 Water pump issue?

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Ryank
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PostSubject: Water pump issue?   Sat Nov 19, 2016 12:52 pm

Apologies if you're reading this for the second time - I accidentally posted in the members inormation bit, and that's for information only.

TLDR:
Problem 1 - Water pump seems to stay on continuously
Problem 2 - no water from hot tap


I'll admit I know nothing about the water system in my van.  When I turn on the pump at the main control switch the pump comes on and doesn't seem to turn off.  It used to make a kind of whirring noise when I switched it on and then would stop, but now it seems to do it continuously whenever I have the pump switch turned on.  It is fully submerged in water in the tank.



When I turn the cold tap, it doesn't sputter or anything, water comes out straight away.  Do you know what may be causing the pump to keep priming, or whatever it is it's doing?

Possibly related, when I turn on the hot water tap, no water at all comes out, same with the shower. It doesn't sputter or anything, nothing at all seems to happen. Even pump doesn't seem to change tone, like it does when the cold tap is on.

As for the heating system, I believe it's a combination heater and hot water heater, although other than the actual air heater unit (pic below) I can't find a water heater.  The air heater runs off butane, so I'm guessing it runs the water heater unit wherever that is.  I believe the gas bottle may be empty though, as I can't get the heater to ignite either.  I'm currently in spain, so I've ordered a replacement valve so I can use one of the spanish style butane bottles.   Would no gas cause no water at all to come out from the hot tap?





Thanks guys (and gals)!
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TwentyOneThirtyFive
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PostSubject: Re: Water pump issue?   Sat Nov 19, 2016 5:29 pm

Re: cold.

If it's a 12v submersible pump then they are usually electrically switched, so something is providing current. How many taps do you have? Are they all off? Maybe a switch has failed open?

If it's a pressure switched pump, you have a leak Smile

Re: warm. No idea, I've always just had a kettle Smile If you have no gas, then you won't get hot water. No idea if that would be related to no water being pumped though. Might be worth asking on a more motorhome type forum, that kind of setup is rare in a HiAce camper.

I'm afraid it looks like you are going to need to learn a bit more about your van's plumbing Sad
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Hiace4wd
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PostSubject: Re: Water pump issue?   Sat Nov 19, 2016 9:22 pm

I think you need to open some doors and stuff to see how the hoses are running

I also think that wayer should still come out of the hot water tap even though no gas is available. Do you hear anything when you open the hot tap?

also, under the sink and stuff, are there any wires coming from the taps? Some taps have switches inside to turn on pump. But i agree that it sounds like a setup, where the pump would stop automatically when pressure is reached.
what happens if you leave it running? Does it come faster out of the tap indicating presdure increase?
Is the water level actually getting lower when you leave it running?
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Ryank
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PostSubject: Re: Water pump issue?   Sun Nov 20, 2016 12:32 pm

Hey TwentyOneThirtyFive and Hiace4wd!  Nice to chat to you again, and thanks for taking the time to chuck me a response!    I had a look, and it seems like the cylinder that goes in the water is the actul pump.  That's where all the noise is coming from once I flick the pump switch at the control panel.  The pump looks very similar to this:



As for how they're hooked up to everything, it's impossible to tell unfortunately, as it's not all plainly laid out.  I have no idea how the water gets heated, if the heater I pictured earlier (Carver 3000) is doing it, the pipes must run onder the floor or something, because from the water pump, the pipes only seem to go to the taps...

Here is the cupboard it's all in.  The white tank by the rainbow strap is the water tank that contains the pump.  The gas bottle lies behind the water tank.  Please note I took the shower head off to try and blow down the hose on the off chance it was some sort of air lock, but it's back on now.


Here is the cupboard to the left of the water tank.  This is where I lose track of the pipes, as they seem to lead to the taps or are going off to the left through the partition, as you can see from this picture.  However, the view is restricted by the fridge and cooker unit to the left of all these, and they're fitted in place, so don't appear to be moveable so this is the point I can no longer follow the cable path.



I think you're right, I think I am gonna need to seek the advice of a motorhome expert.  Although personally, I'm getting to the stage where I leave this unlocked somewhere and hope that someone steals it.  The pop up roof hinge on one side has also broken so now the roof doesn't lie flat properly.  I took the van to the garage about the gearbox, and they did to honour of charging me 120 euros for changing the oil, despite me telling them that the only reason it was with them was to change the gearbox filter, which they didn't do.  I hate this vehicle and it honestly feels like the worst mistake of my life buying it.  If I sell it I will probably lose half the money I paid for it (because I'm an idiot), and it still needs a lot of money spending on it. I'm praying a meteor falls from the sky and reduces the entire thing to a pile of smouldering rubble while I sleep. Hell, the stress and problems and expense I've had over it, at the moment it wouldn't bother me if I were in the thing when the meteor strikes.
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Ryank
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PostSubject: Re: Water pump issue?   Sun Nov 20, 2016 12:49 pm

Hiace4wd wrote:
I think you need to open some doors and stuff to see how the hoses are running
I did have a go, but like I explained in the message before, I can't really tell exactly where they're going due to fixed units in the van.

Hiace4wd wrote:
I also think that wayer should still come out of the hot water tap even though no gas is available. Do you hear anything when you open the hot tap?
I thought water should come out too.  I think I mentioned it, but as the pump comes on permanently it's hard to hear anything at the moment. However, the pumps tone does change when you turn on the cold tap, and that doesn't happen with the hot tap.

Hiace4wd wrote:
also, under the sink and stuff, are there any wires coming from the taps? Some taps have switches inside to turn on pump. But i agree that it sounds like a setup, where the pump would stop automatically when pressure is reached.
what happens if you leave it running? Does it come faster out of the tap indicating presdure increase?
I wouldn't imagine it is that due to the shower and the hot tap having the same issue, but I'll check.  In terms of leaving it running, water comes out the cold tap.  I'm not entirely sure what you're asking.  The water pressure coming out seems pretty consistent from the cold tap.  I've left the pump on for about 5-10 minutes and it never stopped.  I haven't run the cold tap for that long, although like I said the pressure seems pretty consistent and nothing seems to change.  

Hiace4wd wrote:
Is the water level actually getting lower when you leave it running?
I haven't checked, but I would imagine so - the water has to be coming from somewhere!
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Hiace4wd
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PostSubject: Re: Water pump issue?   Sun Nov 20, 2016 12:59 pm

The blue/white wire is going into your tap right? In the last pic is the bottom of sink right?
Then I think your tap is making a constant connection, instead of making only a connection when you open the tap. Do you have a multimeter?
Also can you check if you can disconnect that wire somewhere easily?

If it is the issue you can do two things:
- replace the tap
keep the tap and buy a simple foot switch, and run the wire through foot switch instead of tap. Wont cost much.
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TwentyOneThirtyFive
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PostSubject: Re: Water pump issue?   Sun Nov 20, 2016 5:24 pm

Deep breath, there's nothing here that can't be solved.  Sadly, at 20odd years old, electrical things start to fail.  I've had a couple of tap related issues over the years.

I agree with HA4wd, think you have one tap that is failing closed (ie. a permanent circuit is formed), causing the pump to run continuously.  Focus on that problem first, then worry about the hot water.

Looking at the pictures and working with the info given:

1. There is only one pump, so that supplies both hot and cold supplies.  It's a whale submersible which are very common, and are switched electrically.
2. The pump will start by either the hot or cold tap being turned.  disconnect the electrical supply from one tap and see what happens.  Then try the other.  Must be a way to get to the back of the taps.
3. Looks like that Y junction diverts water to the heater, with a red pipe returning hot water from the heater.  So check that for route blockages once the pump on/offing is solved.

Finding a new hinge for the pop top shouldn't be hard.  Try the Reimo catalogue, the Japanese used a lot of Reimo stuff in their conversions.

(if it helps, I spent all of yesterday trying to get the bolt which tensions the power steering pump belt undone and failed.  One bolt, all day.  Welcome to the world of old vans:) Patience is required - sadly I have none!)
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Ryank
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PostSubject: Re: Water pump issue?   Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:54 pm

I've had a look, and actually those wires don't go to the taps at all.  They go into the partition/under the floor, and to the area containing the water heater (I'm guessing it's the water heater), although it doesn't seem to connect directly to it.  Here's a pic of where the wire leads to, if you right click and open image in a new tab, you should be able to zoom in a bit:



Here's a couple of better images of the stuff in this compartment:





The taps themselves have nothing other than water pipes connecting to them, from both the sink taps and the shower. Also, I don't think even if the taps have switches it would be that as I'm getting exactly the same issue with the shower as I'm getting from the separate sink taps.



Oh, and my new regulator turned up today, so I fitted that, and am succesfully getting heating, and gas from the hobs.  Only problem is that I'm still getting the same issue with the water, none of it, hot or cold is coming out of the hot tap even with working gas
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PostSubject: Re: Water pump issue?   Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:57 pm

Oh, as for the noise, the pump seems to be going continuously, so it's difficult to tell - however, when I turn the cold tap on the tone the pump is making changes, and this doesn't happen when the hot tap is turned on...
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Ryank
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PostSubject: Re: Water pump issue?   Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:02 pm

Ah Guys, I've just seen the latest posts you put in yesterday, I somehow must have forgotten to refresh my page, so I've just seen them. I will digest, and try stuff out, and get back to you! The permanent circuit does seem to make sense - only thing is that I can't see anything on the taps other than water hoses. Are the switches internal to the tap or something?
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TwentyOneThirtyFive
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PostSubject: Re: Water pump issue?   Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:33 pm

That's interesting.

The pump noise changes because when you close the tap, the pump is getting a whole bunch of resistance when it tries to move the water along the pipe.  The hot tap not working/not making any difference to the noise says to me that there is constant blockage on the hot water path.

I wonder if that is how it was designed then?  It doesn't see right to me, in fact that sounds like a quick way to a burnt out pump.

Do the blue and white wires connect to the pump, via the main switch? And do they connect to the battery (probably via a fuse)?
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TwentyOneThirtyFive
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PostSubject: Re: Water pump issue?   Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:44 pm

Ryank wrote:


That white thing on the blue pipe between the Y junctions, is that a tap?  And if it is, is it open or closed?
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TwentyOneThirtyFive
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PostSubject: Re: Water pump issue?   Mon Nov 21, 2016 5:08 pm


Here's the manual for the Carver Cascade 2 water heater. Looks like it is a seperate thing from your heater (the Carver 3000, which is apparently a rebadged Truma 3002).

http://arcsystems.biz/manuals/Cascade2.PDF
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Ryank
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PostSubject: Re: Water pump issue?   Mon Nov 21, 2016 5:28 pm

Yeah man, that white thing is the pressure control valve.  I tried turning it, and can get the pump to pulse instead of stay on continuously, so it's an improvement, but not ideal!  

I put a bunch of pictures (you've probably seen most of them) here:

http://imgur.com/a/znD8G

I was able to label the pictures too, so it may or may not give you a bit more of an idea as to what's what and where in the van.


Last edited by Ryank on Mon Nov 21, 2016 5:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Water pump issue?   Mon Nov 21, 2016 5:34 pm

Are the electical cables connected to that pressure valve then?

edit. Yes, I see in the imgur photos that it is.

I think this is going to be the part that is causing the issue. It should only be starting the pump when the tap is opened (pressure is reduced).
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PostSubject: Re: Water pump issue?   Mon Nov 21, 2016 5:39 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Water pump issue?   Mon Nov 21, 2016 5:55 pm

Funny, that's how I knew it was a pressure switch, I had seen that page! I'm sorry, I should have said, but I forgot!

I did follow this but I didn't notice the bit that says I may need to refill the container. I'm assuming that means the water tank, although I thought the system was supposed to fill itself automatically. I'll give that manual a read...
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PostSubject: Re: Water pump issue?   Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:00 pm

I've just noticed a section that says "ensure that the system is turned on and that the system is filled with water, i.e water flows from the hot taps" - I'm guessing this might be the problem then, as I'm getting no water from the hot taps...

EDIT: I've been looking into microswitches on youtube.  I don't think I have any in my setup.  Where this guy shows microswitches in the tap plumbing, you can see from the pictures I don't have them.  

I've just seen a post on another forum where someone was having the problem with the pump staying on due to low battery voltage, and although mine is displaying ok, it has been a long time since I've put any juice in that didn't come from driving the van.  I'll try that tomorrow when my adaptor that allows me to plug the van hookup cable into regular sockets arrives.  Still doesn't explain the hot water issue though...

Oh and the blue and white wires, they go to the same area as the water heater, and then they disappear into the whole in front of it, which I think goes under the floor, so I have no idea where they lead.  Being attached to the pressure valve though I'd figure they are fairly important to the whole process!  If I had found the cable disconnected and that taps had microswitches, I'd totally think the wires were for that!

EDIT AGAIN: This might possibly be the non-return valve on the water heater that's causing no water from the hot tap. Unfortunately I don't have a spare and I'll probably be making my trip before I can get a spare, let alone mess around and fit it to see whether it's even the problem. I can live without hot water, I'll just have hobo showers using wetwipes! When I get to my destination I'll join a gym complex that has a bunch of saunas and showers anyway. Only have to live in it for 10 days, but it is subzero temperatures and snow! Thank god the has heater works now!
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PostSubject: Re: Water pump issue?   Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:15 pm

Ok, I've been posting on another forum for Caravans, not sure if posting the link would be bad forum etiquette or not, so I haven't right now, but as very knowledgeable sounding guy gave me some very good info on both the lack of water from the hot tap and the pump remaining on - both could be caused by the non-return valve, which ties in with what I'd discovered on my search for the problem.

So I guess it's that that is the source of the issues, and I'll just fit a new one in the spring. Thanks so much for your input on this guys - I understand it's not so common in Hiaces, and appreciate you taking the time to help and give options on possible problems. With this and my other posts, you've helped me out a lot - I'll post you guys some internet points. Very Happy

Instead, here's a cool video of a 4w4 climbing. Unfortunately I had a better one, but I can't find it!

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Hiace4wd
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PostSubject: Re: Water pump issue?   Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:18 pm

Haha nice.

So you mentioned an oil change of the automatic gearbox. Did it help?
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PostSubject: Re: Water pump issue?   Tue Nov 22, 2016 7:35 am

Good progress Smile  And we've learnt a bit more about your van in the process Very Happy  I never knew about the Whale pressure switch before, I've only seen the pressure switched pumps as a single unit, so that is good info.

About the microswitches, you won't have any, because you have the pressure switch.

If you are looking for nice campervan videos to pass the time, check out the campervanculture.com videos.  Oh, and then the Hasta Alaska series.

And yes, has the gearbox oil change worked?  I changed mine the other day, but haven't been able to test it as the van is still up on axlestands.
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PostSubject: Re: Water pump issue?   Tue Nov 22, 2016 1:34 pm

I will indeed check those out - Hasta Alaska sounds right up my street and that's going from the name alone!  

You're right about the microswitches, I've done a bit more research on that too!  I definitely don't have them, so it's almost 100% that the problem is the non-return valve.  I've emptied all the water from the van anyway, as apparently, leaving water in them can cause them to breach when it gets very cold, so I opened the drain valve and emptied my fresh water tank too.  I can live without water for 10 days in the van, especially as I'll have a gym membership.  Probably save me a bit on petrol too, carrying at least 12 litres of water less for 2000 miles!

I'm not sure if the oil changed helped to be honest.  As there's pretty much no serious work that could be done before I leave, even if I had a reliable garage to go to if I discover any more problems or the gearbox is still terrible. So I haven't really bothered to test it - my only option is to leave it and just hope the time I haven't driven it will count towards how far I make it if it does have an inevitable problem!  I need to use it tomorrow to sort out some stuff, so I'll see how it fares.  It's also difficult to test because the problem is intermittent too.

Oh and for future reference, in case anyone needs it, Here is a good set of instructions on how to do a bunch of stuff for the carver cascade water heaters and in the parent category is also a bit of info on the whale pumps and their pressure switches.  It also has a diagram on the unit that I haven't seen anywhere else.

http://www.myidealcaravan.co.uk/cascade%20removal.html


Last edited by Ryank on Tue Nov 22, 2016 1:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Water pump issue?   Tue Nov 22, 2016 1:40 pm

Oh, and I'm gonna post the diagram in case I need to find it again in a hurry!



#1 Burner control Module
#3 Insulation Jacket
#5 Drain Plug
#7 Hot water outlet,New Type
#10 Water Inlet,Non Return Valve
#11 Wall Switch/Remote
#12 C2 Pressure Relief Valve/Fast Drain
#13 Flue Cowl Ass. Ivory/White
#14 C2 Fusible Plug
#17 GE Thermal Cut Out(Reset)
#18 GE Thermostat
#20 C2/GE Tank Repair Kit
#21 Wall Switch New Type 22 630w Element (230v)
#23 830w Element (230v)
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PostSubject: Re: Water pump issue?   Fri Nov 25, 2016 12:26 am

Glad you seem to have diagnosed this, I know nothing about these systems except your rig looks well equipped!
Fingers crossed for the gearbox.
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PostSubject: Re: Water pump issue?   Fri Nov 25, 2016 5:00 am

Yeah, it is well equipped, and I definitely paid over the odds for my hiace.  To be fair though, When I bought it, It came with:

- bunk beds,
- a pop up roof and an over the cab sleeping area,
- a water heater and a gas heater with warm air ducting to blow the heat around,
- a 3 way fridge with a small freezer compartment,
- 4 gas hobs and a gas grill, plus the gas bottle and setup,  
- an unfitted towbar,
- New winter tyres
- New leisure battery
- nice little reversing camera
- fresh underseal application
- a really good sized awning and a tent that I believe attaches to the van,
- A kind of bathroom at the back with a kitchen sink, a porta potty, and a hot shower.  

Unfortunately, I also thought I was getting a van with:

- a vacuum pump that's not sheared from the alternator and cost me 2000 euros of repairs,  
- a fully working gearbox that isn't potentially fecked and might need a new one,
- an out of the way roof area I could sleep in (and didn't have knackered tent material in the pop up, and an uneven and concave surface that's impossible to sleep on),
- a fuel pump that isn't leaking and possibly on the way out,
- a speedometer that works,
- a vehicle that wouldn't suck me dry of all my savings.

So there is good and bad!  I've been watching a lot of videos on youtube, including that Hasta Alaska guy who had to rebuild or replace the engine in his Vw van EIGHT times!!!  That gives me hope that perhaps this thing might be salvageable and not just a onsell.  Truthfully since spending about 4 hours watching loads of van conversion videos, I realise how kitted out and awesome mine is!  I can stand up in it.  I have a stand up shower, and a toilet.  If I gutted the inside and fitted solar panels, I actually think it could be a truly legendary van, and potentially manageable as a completely off grid camper.

It all depends on whether I'm going to New Zealand in 6 months.  As it is the van is going to be sitting around for a lot of this winter in very cold temperatures, and if I go to NZ it'll be sat around for at least a year after that, so I may as well sell it.  But it's a really unusual example of one, and is much more private, secure, and even stealth, as it doesn't have windows that go down it's entire length.  I've never seen another one like it, and it's a 4x4 camper too, which you just don't see many of!  On top of all that, I've probably put about 3 grand into this since I've had it, although that's pretty much all mechanical repairs so it doesn't look any fancier or have any additional functionality.  

I'm not only worried that I'd never see another one again, because of the 80s style interior and it's age, it really could use a refurb inside, so unless I find someone who falls in love with it's looks and it's potential as I did, I'm gonna lose a lot of money on it.  Perhaps I'm being pessimistic, but I looked at the current market, and think I'd be extremely lucky to get what I paid for it, and would probably have to take a 1 or 2 grand hit on the sale. Meaning that's probably about a 5 grand loss!

To sell and cut my losses, or possibly pay more money that I don't really have into stripping the inside and not only making it amazing, but maybe even break even in the long run if I do a good enough job stripping and rebuilding inside? Tricky decision, but I guess it's also made for me depending on whether I get the job in NZ, for which I'd definitely need the small amount of money (compared to what I paid for it and spend on it) I'd get when I sold it. Hmmm....!
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